Polska @ World Cup 2018

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MG
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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by MG » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:26 am

So I've read all your comments, watched a bunch of the analysis on Polish TV and thought about all of this and my conclusions are this:

We played mentally, physically and tactically like crap and Nawalka and his 18 man team should all be fired.

Boniek needs to hire somebody tough as nails but also a smart tactician who as his first act would take the players he chooses to the Tatry for a week-long mountain excursion ... but not as tourists but as a boot camp of sorts where he would show them from the start that there will be no BS with him. Then he would get to the mental and tactical aspects. As I don't see any Polish coach being able to do all of this it will need to be a foreign coach.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by Borubar » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:56 am

polskaforever wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:35 am
I know we had some fak ups during qualifiers but so did Denmark. Denmark had more fak ups than us actually. Denmark managed to earn points in WC and still be in it.

To have two successful qualifing campaigns and a successful tourney in between the wc campaign shouldnt have happened the way it did. There shouldve been at least a fighting chance points wise left like Denmark to make it past the groups.
To be fair, and not an excuse by any means because we were utter crap. Australia and Peru are shiitier teams than Senegal and Colombia. That's why I and even some polish players would prefer have one strong opponent and 2 shit teams. Ie group c and g.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by polskazfynezt69 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:44 am

jacekplacek wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:31 am
We deserved this, we deserved to be embarassed, we deserved all of it. In classic Polish mentality we thought we were better than we actually were. Startiing with PZPN, the players, the media and all the way through to the fans. This team was overhyped and the biggest faker going into this tournament.

The Polish players thought things would come easy to them and it vs Senegal. We underestimated our opponent, showed them no respect, came out nervous and timid. You have to step your game up for the WC, there is another level of fight and desire to win one needs to show. The Polish team did not achieve this next level, did not come even close.

Maybe this is all fitting as the sneaky PZPN gamed the system to achieve their fake #8 ranking to land in pot 1. How could Poland be ranked higher than Spain? Are you kidding me? Footbal justice was served and Poland was put in it's rightful place as the biggest pretender in the tournament.
Couldnt have said it better myself.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by LegiaMistrz1 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:14 am

Couple things.
1) Mentality: For those people who don't believe it's a mental weakness thing, please look back at the last three World Cup appearances (2002, 2006, 2018). Completely different players, different coach, different system, same result. You have to look for a common denominator in all of these situations and that is our incredibly weak mental fitness when on the biggest stage. We don't have one single player who has a champions mentality, even Lewandowski craps the bed in big matches for Bayern. There is some kind of mental blockage of the Polish athlete in the last 30-40 years, I'm not sure if it's from an inferiority complex or what, but it's definitely there. It's a mentality of "jakos bedzie", that has held us back for so long. I believe there is a Polish author who wrote a book on this specific topic which was touted right before this World Cup.

2)The ranking. At some point we started to believe our own lie, that we are a top 10 team in the world. Even I was fooled at times watching this team, but that ranking has to be confirmed at the highest stage and it wasn't. PZPN reasoning was to be drawn from the top pot to face weaker teams in the tournament, but we were that weakest team. Imagine if we drew teams much stronger than us, I believe playing from an actual position that fits our actual level would have caused us to play and treat ourselves with more honesty. That we're not top 10, so we need to work extra hard each game and not under estimate any opponent.

3)Tactics: It seemed to me like Nawalka was always trying to prove he was some tactical genius, always trying to reinvent the wheel with our tactics and formation. He lasted as long as he did not because of his tactics and technical knowledge of the game, but because of two things. One he was lucky to have a very good generation of players who peaked circa 2016 which included a world class player in Lewandowski. Two, he was able to create a very good atmosphere in the team and have solid relationships with players, being able to relate as he played at the highest level himself. That's it, nothing more. You can ask the question if perhaps we would have been better off with a foreign coach who has had a ton of experience and is a tactical mastermind. I would say it's a trade off, because most likely that coach wouldn't have cared enough to create conditions and that positive atmosphere around the team that Nawalka did, so that's hard to tell what we'd actually fully get out of this group of players.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by seuratski » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:45 am

I don't understand why there is this feeling of a foreign coach will be better. There is no other Leo Beenhakker eagerly waiting in the wings to coach this team. And even if there were, let's all remember Jose Mourinho's "you want to make an omelette" speech. No one is interested in cooking with Polish eggs.

Furthermore, Croatia has superior players, which makes absolutely no sense when you compare that country to Poland. They also have a Croatian coach in Zlatko Dalic who averaged about 14 appearances for his clubs per season over a 17 year career. Prior to his stint as NT coach, he was coaching Saudi teams in their league. From that resume alone, I doubt any of you would even mention his name as someone you'd like to see coaching our team.

Start naming names of coaches you would like to see coach Poland so that we can have open discussions on if we think that man would be right for the job. Just blanketly stating that a foreign coach will fix all the problems is total bs. The anti-Polish sentiment that our players and our coaches suck starts with us and feeds the rest of the world's view. Our players played like shit. This wasn't the real Polish side. You can blame the coach and his 18 man academy of "don't worry tomorrow will be worse" mentality. But shitting on this team the way they shit on the field doesn't make any sense. If you really feel that this situation is hopeless, then why bother paying attention anymore?

As Roger Bennett of Men in Blazers has said, two of his favorite World Cups were 1978 and 1994 when England failed to qualify. Without his spotlight on England, he was able to enjoy those World Cups for the great stories and play that came out of them. Just ignore Poland if you can't handle the meltdowns that we endure. There's plenty of other teams to cheer for in these tournaments, and plenty of other things to watch besides soccer.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by MG » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:45 am

LegiaMistrz I agree with you 100% on pretty much everything you said.

In terms of my personal opinion on the mentality issue, I think as a nation and a people we have never really mentally, emotionally and spiritually rebuilt ourselves after the pounding we got from the Nazi's and then getting handed over by the West to the Communists ... and then 50 years of Communism did its work. Just like theoretically we have our own country when the truth is we're a colony of Germany (when controlled by a party like PO) or an American/Israeli colony (if controlled by a party like PIS) I think we theoretically have strong sports teams.

One other thing Nawalka in todays press conference said that Colombia was the best team we have played in the last 2 years; he was right on and he only has himself to thank as he was responsible for playing weak teams during friendlies or not playing friendly games at all. After the qualifications, we should have had a friendly against an Argentina, Brazil, or Uruguay and some top European team as that would expose our weaknesses then and Nawalka would have had more time to realistically look at how good this team is. At that point he probably would have canned his 3D idea as with 3D one or both of these teams would have put 5-6 goals past us.

Seuratski you want a name I'll give you a name but this guy would cost a lot ... Zinedine Zidane. If Boniek ponies up the cash he might be able to sell Zizi on taking up the job.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by LegiaMistrz1 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:27 am

MG wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:45 am
LegiaMistrz I agree with you 100% on pretty much everything you said.

In terms of my personal opinion on the mentality issue, I think as a nation and a people we have never really mentally, emotionally and spiritually rebuilt ourselves after the pounding we got from the Nazi's and then getting handed over by the West to the Communists ... and then 50 years of Communism did its work. Just like theoretically we have our own country when the truth is we're a colony of Germany (when controlled by a party like PO) or an American/Israeli colony (if controlled by a party like PIS) I think we theoretically have strong sports teams.

One other thing Nawalka in todays press conference said that Colombia was the best team we have played in the last 2 years; he was right on and he only has himself to thank as he was responsible for playing weak teams during friendlies or not playing friendly games at all. After the qualifications, we should have had a friendly against an Argentina, Brazil, or Uruguay and some top European team as that would expose our weaknesses then and Nawalka would have had more time to realistically look at how good this team is. At that point he probably would have canned his 3D idea as with 3D one or both of these teams would have put 5-6 goals past us.

Seuratski you want a name I'll give you a name but this guy would cost a lot ... Zinedine Zidane. If Boniek ponies up the cash he might be able to sell Zizi on taking up the job.
Yea all those years of being bullied by Germany and Russia plays it's role in a nations collective mentality I would think.

I highly doubt we would get Zidane, but I do like your optimism. Going back to the mentality thing, when was the last time we conceited a goal first and ended up winning a game? After we concede the first goal we shut down mentally, we're already defeated and even more so in big tournaments. At Euro 2016 when we have had any kind of success we scored 1st in every game. We break easily mentally, we think since we've given up the first goal we're already the worst of the teams and deserve to lose. I know many will say, "no way, these are professionals with strong personalities, they know how to handle pressure". They're still people though and they have a breaking point, sometimes it's that simple.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by seuratski » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:42 am

MG wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:45 am
Seuratski you want a name I'll give you a name but this guy would cost a lot ... Zinedine Zidane. If Boniek ponies up the cash he might be able to sell Zizi on taking up the job.
I can't see any circumstance under which Zidane would even consider coaching Poland. Why would he want to come here? He doesn't need the money. Hell, if he even had any interest in coaching I don't think he would have walked away from Real Madrid. I like the thought, I just think it's far too wishful.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by polskaforever » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:31 pm

LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:14 am
Couple things.
1) Mentality: For those people who don't believe it's a mental weakness thing, please look back at the last three World Cup appearances (2002, 2006, 2018). Completely different players, different coach, different system, same result. You have to look for a common denominator in all of these situations and that is our incredibly weak mental fitness when on the biggest stage. We don't have one single player who has a champions mentality, even Lewandowski craps the bed in big matches for Bayern. There is some kind of mental blockage of the Polish athlete in the last 30-40 years, I'm not sure if it's from an inferiority complex or what, but it's definitely there. It's a mentality of "jakos bedzie", that has held us back for so long. I believe there is a Polish author who wrote a book on this specific topic which was touted right before this World Cup.

2)The ranking. At some point we started to believe our own lie, that we are a top 10 team in the world. Even I was fooled at times watching this team, but that ranking has to be confirmed at the highest stage and it wasn't. PZPN reasoning was to be drawn from the top pot to face weaker teams in the tournament, but we were that weakest team. Imagine if we drew teams much stronger than us, I believe playing from an actual position that fits our actual level would have caused us to play and treat ourselves with more honesty. That we're not top 10, so we need to work extra hard each game and not under estimate any opponent.

3)Tactics: It seemed to me like Nawalka was always trying to prove he was some tactical genius, always trying to reinvent the wheel with our tactics and formation. He lasted as long as he did not because of his tactics and technical knowledge of the game, but because of two things. One he was lucky to have a very good generation of players who peaked circa 2016 which included a world class player in Lewandowski. Two, he was able to create a very good atmosphere in the team and have solid relationships with players, being able to relate as he played at the highest level himself. That's it, nothing more. You can ask the question if perhaps we would have been better off with a foreign coach who has had a ton of experience and is a tactical mastermind. I would say it's a trade off, because most likely that coach wouldn't have cared enough to create conditions and that positive atmosphere around the team that Nawalka did, so that's hard to tell what we'd actually fully get out of this group of players.
I agree with you about mental weakness. Euro 2016 showed us how much better (normal) we are if we are not suffering a mental breakdown.

I disagree with you about ranking. Me as a fan I didnt believe we were really ranked that high but the players I dont know.

Nawalka wasnt a tactical mastermind but he did better than the previous coaches before him. I dont think you give him enough credit for that. A foreign coach is not going to help us if we continue to keep showing mental weakness.

I would also like to add that Columbia wasnt the toughest team we faced. Japan beat them and they are similar level as us. The players were not mentally in it this tourney so everything looked much tougher than it shouldve been. The group we were drawn wasnt that tough to begin with. We played like minnows and bombed ourselves out of the tournament.

Its too bad Nawalkas campaign had to end this way.
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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by daniel » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:13 pm

We just dont produce enough quality players. Especially good technical players able to keep the ball and play it out.

I dont like this idea of , "they need to toughen up", "bad mentality", Its seductive as it offers a easy quick solution. Really however its going around in circles. We are not gonna be a great team by sending our players to "toughen up" in a bootcamp in Tatry. Or endlessly changing coaches to install a "tough mentality".


But changing the way we teach and nurture youth requires long term planning and hard work over many years and decades.

And its not even purely a question of money. Teams like Serbia or Croatia are poorer and smaller but produce great technical players.



When has Poland produced a playmaker close to as good as Modric?

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by LegiaMistrz1 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 pm

daniel wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:13 pm
We just dont produce enough quality players. Especially good technical players able to keep the ball and play it out.

I dont like this idea of , "they need to toughen up", "bad mentality", Its seductive as it offers a easy quick solution. Really however its going around in circles. We are not gonna be a great team by sending our players to "toughen up" in a bootcamp in Tatry. Or endlessly changing coaches to install a "tough mentality".


But changing the way we teach and nurture youth requires long term planning and hard work over many years and decades.

And its not even purely a question of money. Teams like Serbia or Croatia are poorer and smaller but produce great technical players.



When has Poland produced a playmaker close to as good as Modric?
I would trade Lewandowski for Modric any day of the week, main reason being Modric can create situations for many players, Lewy needs situations created for him which he easily finishes, we don't have a creative talent. There is a problem with our mentality though, I also think there were issues behind the scenes related to transfers which distracted our best players including our captain. Unfortunately I think he found this WC to come at a very inconvenient time for him since he's trying to leave Bayern. The irony is now Real Madrid wouldn't hire him to cut their grass.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by seuratski » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:36 pm

Sure they would, they'd be supplying Lewy the mower.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by daniel » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:56 pm

LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 pm
There is a problem with our mentality though,
Ofcourse there is. We always loose. Its the same at each tournament when we make it. Why would it be any different?

Our few successes came decades ago and were not even that amazing. We find it hard to truly believe that we can win.

But then how can we realistically change that?

In football* I believe its by working to create players that are so good, that they can overcome that handicap.

Then we have a winners mentality where we can not imagine not winning.

Confidence flows from results and real talent.


*Like somebody said this is not only true for football but everywhere else. Poland is used to being a second rate nation hanging on the coattails of others and being beaten down. 200 tragic years create that.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by LegiaMistrz1 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:03 pm

daniel wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:56 pm
LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 pm
There is a problem with our mentality though,
Ofcourse there is. We always loose. Its the same at each tournament when we make it. Why would it be any different?

Our few successes came decades ago and were not even that amazing. We find it hard to truly believe that we can win.

But then how can we realistically change that?

In football* I believe its by working to create players that are so good, that they can overcome that handicap.

Then we have a winners mentality where we can not imagine not winning.

Confidence flows from results and real talent.


*Like somebody said this is not only true for football but everywhere else. Poland is used to being a second rate nation hanging on the coattails of others and being beaten down. 200 tragic years create that.
Unfortunately the youth now would rather sit at home and play video games and shove Prince Polo and Orenzada down their throats than go outside and play. Future is looking very bleak.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by polskaforever » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:26 pm

LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:03 pm
daniel wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:56 pm
LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 pm
There is a problem with our mentality though,
Ofcourse there is. We always loose. Its the same at each tournament when we make it. Why would it be any different?

Our few successes came decades ago and were not even that amazing. We find it hard to truly believe that we can win.

But then how can we realistically change that?

In football* I believe its by working to create players that are so good, that they can overcome that handicap.

Then we have a winners mentality where we can not imagine not winning.

Confidence flows from results and real talent.


*Like somebody said this is not only true for football but everywhere else. Poland is used to being a second rate nation hanging on the coattails of others and being beaten down. 200 tragic years create that.
Unfortunately the youth now would rather sit at home and play video games and shove Prince Polo and Orenzada down their throats than go outside and play. Future is looking very bleak.
Future looks better than 2000s, 2010s etc. A lot of EK clubs are making better training facilities and academies. Polish players are getting sold for more and more money than ever before. Do you guys follow the Polish league at all?

This NT had the best players it ever had in a long time. Unfortunately we didnt play like a team and didnt look like it compared to our opponents in our group. Thats been the difference. How can you win like that? Talent wont help you here. You saw it that everyone played worse.

Most nations every once in a while produce a "super" talent and the rest of the players are avg. Besides Modric Croatia doesnt have amazing players. They just dont bomb the way we do in a tournament.
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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by scyzor_tay » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:43 pm

To truly gauge whether the entire football system, passion and heart of this game is present in a country..

Its all about producing a top class center midfielder. The center mid represents the complete game, complete technical ability and skill. That is the key player which can dictate an entire match.. can change an entire match with 1 pass. Look at a lot of nations that are able to at least compete, they always have this player.. the best countries produce them consistently.. the top top nations have 3-4 of them to choose from. When is the last time PL produced a complete center mid that goes on to play in a big European club? Can't think of one. Compare quality of leagues to Croatia, but they somehow managed to produce a player like Modric. You even have Japan who have a player like Kagawa. Denmark have Eriksson. You could argue Krychowiak is almost close to that role, but hes a def. mid, I don't see him as a complete mid that could change a game and fully control a game. He could adapt that type of role, but it comes down to tactics and whether hes able to fulfill it with his technical ability = for example, Xhaka for Swiss, Obi Mikel for Nigeria. I won't even go to mention how many options teams like Brazil, France, Germany and Spain have.

There was so many problems and reasons why Poland was way behind Colombia yesterday.. but you look at the middle of the field alone. Poland got destroyed, PL never had an outlet there, no creativity, no one to control the game and make something happen, no energy stemming from the nucleus of the team. James and Quintero absolutely destroyed the middle. All 3 assists came from them, 2 of them were beautiful passes that killed Poland off.

A lot of people/football fans are under the illusion that the best player to produce is a striker, which is false. The striker gets all of the shine because they ultimately score goals which is what allows you to win. But the center mid is the true mark of the complete game embodied into one individual.

Its not just about a "winning" mentality. To want to win is one thing, its about where that winning idea stems from... its having a killer mindset, a hunger to perform, a hunger to run up and down the flank like its nothing, a hunger to be more physical, a hunger to improve your skill.. etc.. the mentality is something that goes with the skill and ability players have. Mentality alone will not get a team anywhere but just not good enough to beat a team with complete players.
Last edited by scyzor_tay on Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by scyzor_tay » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:46 pm

polskaforever wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:26 pm
Future looks better than 2000s, 2010s etc. A lot of EK clubs are making better training facilities and academies. Polish players are getting sold for more and more money than ever before. Do you guys follow the Polish league at all?

This NT had the best players it ever had in a long time. Unfortunately we didnt play like a team and didnt look like it compared to our opponents in our group. Thats been the difference. How can you win like that? Talent wont help you here. You saw it that everyone played worse.

Most nations every once in a while produce a "super" talent and the rest of the players are avg. Besides Modric Croatia doesnt have amazing players. They just dont bomb the way we do in a tournament.
I agree its getting better little by little. Zielinski and Milik alone are signs that Polish players are moving into better European leagues/teams.. they just don't seem all the way there yet in terms of being a true complete player.. and they are still only 24 so they might improve.. but you look at Modric who went to the EPL at 23 and became a starter and key player instantly.

To play devils advocate here.. the main thing to counter the idea that the Polish league and system is getting better, is why on earth would a player like Świerczok feel the need to move to BULGARIA (no disrespect) vs staying in Poland? :| That alone explains a lot.

Btw, I disagree.. Croatias midfield options include Modric, Rakitic, Perisic, Kovacic, and Brozovic.. they are much stronger than Polands and we are way behind in that quality.

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by lewandowskielbasa » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:14 pm

LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:03 pm
daniel wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:56 pm
LegiaMistrz1 wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:26 pm
There is a problem with our mentality though,
Ofcourse there is. We always loose. Its the same at each tournament when we make it. Why would it be any different?

Our few successes came decades ago and were not even that amazing. We find it hard to truly believe that we can win.

But then how can we realistically change that?

In football* I believe its by working to create players that are so good, that they can overcome that handicap.

Then we have a winners mentality where we can not imagine not winning.

Confidence flows from results and real talent.


*Like somebody said this is not only true for football but everywhere else. Poland is used to being a second rate nation hanging on the coattails of others and being beaten down. 200 tragic years create that.
Unfortunately the youth now would rather sit at home and play video games and shove Prince Polo and Orenzada down their throats than go outside and play. Future is looking very bleak.
I think there is truth in that. As Polska continues to increase in prosperity. Meanwhile nations such as France are full of players that used soccer to escape poverty. Or Shaqiri/Shaka to escape War.

For a country that is surely a "Football nation", I always found Polaks living in Poland to quickly dismiss the sport especially in difficult times. Poles are more focused on their careers, while "football is more for meatheads/hooligans"

I think a lot of Polish supportors only exist (during International competition) to cheer for Poland versus foreigners not necessarily the sport itself

Sidenote: when Polska was finishing 3rd in WC's, how many players from African nations were playing abroad in English leagues? Europeans enjoy the elite domestic leagues on weekends and don't see the whole picture in regards to how it is training ground for players representing other nations, especially continents. I.E if Senegal and it's EPL squad eliminates the English national team

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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by polskaforever » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:57 pm

Pazdan was the best player over two games. He plays for Legia. You dont need super talent to win games. Without Glik, people were worried Pazdan would be worse. If the rest of the team had his attitude and mentality then we would still be in it. Even with new tactics Pazdan still played well. Why couldnt the rest of the team?
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Re: Polska @ World Cup 2018

Post by MG » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:04 am

polskaforever wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:57 pm
Pazdan was the best player over two games. He plays for Legia. You dont need super talent to win games. Without Glik, people were worried Pazdan would be worse. If the rest of the team had his attitude and mentality then we would still be in it. Even with new tactics Pazdan still played well. Why couldnt the rest of the team?
Polskaforever there is different answers for different guys; Krychowiak, Grosik, and Kuba all didn't play most of the season because of injuries and bad play and you can't cheat that. Piszczek tried his heart out but his age is showing.

Also you can add that in general Western life coddles most of our players and there motivation levels drop after they hit a certain level; most obviously we saw that with Krychowiak who should have gotten out of PSG much quicker but he liked the French bourgeois lifestyle.

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